Then I had trainer Kati try to help me get Mag to walk around the tree. It's nice to have had three trainers now who are not adverse to improvising and using the woods as arenas. Except that as of today, all three of them have failed to get Mag to go around the tree.
And this morning I made it my "simple" goal. I explained to Susanne how Mag believes doing arena work in the woods is stupid, and I've had several bad experiences in this very spot with this very tree. She said I should get to work doing ground work around the tree, and lead him around it repeatedly.
I said to her, "BTW, I do not believe ground work always translates to under-saddle work. Mag will show you why."
Mag was perfect, stepping over the "poles" I'd laid down. Funnily, I kept getting ice balls on my feet, where my half-chaps strap goes under my shoe. Just like a shod horse in snow, I was walking on tennis-ball sized stilts.
Then I got on Mag and asked him to walk around the tree. Susanne could tell I was tense so she walked around it a ways ahead of me, so I could pay attention to what she was saying. She corrected my hand position to make it easier for him to bend.
It went beautifully about 10 times around, until Mag said "Enough of this crap" and refused. Just like all the other times, he just barged sideways and I could barely get him turned back toward the tree and moving forward again. I was perplexed, what is his problem?
Susanne said my aids confuse him, and that he's struggling with bending, it's hard work. That I need to be much more decisive while steering him.
I beg to differ because 1. He can do the 4-leaf clover exercise endlessly in a riding arena and 2. If my aids are so confusing, what changed on the 11th attempt to circle the tree? I did not change anything.
Here is an image of the clover exercise - it's very soothing to me, and Mag could do it all day:
Perhaps Mag somehow sees the "point" of doing these exercises when in an arena, and he feels the point of being in the woods is to go down the trail? Is that too far-fetched?
I'm having a hard time being blamed for his behavior when, in my experience, he simply finds the exercise pointless, and refuses out of an obstinate streak. Some might say it's rude of me to say this about an animal, but Susanne put the blame mostly on me.
I discussed it with her a while, asking her "Can you accept that the reason might be *partially* in his head and not his body?" She asked, "Did he barge out of the circle in the direction of home?" Yes. "OK, then it is a mixture of you confusing him with your aids and laziness."
I told her Ani needs much more help than I do today, that I'm done for the day. She's still teaching Ani how to get the mare to yield space, and I approved when she told Ani that she's too gentle with the big brutish mare.
After our shared lesson Ani wanted to take a walk, but I was done with the ice balls so I rode. Mag slipped and slid all the way down the muddy snowy switchback and I was thrilled how he listened to my half halts the entire slip and slide down. "Nice and slow" I'd say and he seems to understand this.
Remember that length-wise split, still-standing tree? Ani told me they'd finally cut it down, but they'd left all its branches directly in the trail, and it's impossible to pass. I said "Let's clear it. It's about time I did some maintenance on my favorite trail!" When we arrived, indeed it was a mess. It was obviously purposefully done, no idea. I thought there must be some gigantic hole underneath, but no. I had Mag tied to a tree and I'm so proud, cuz I feel I can tie him anywhere now. Ani didn't have gloves so I did all the work. Just like home in America, I moved all the branches til we could make it through.
Ani told me that Susanne disagrees about doing groundwork with Rudi when she has one of her freaking out episodes where she rams her shoulder into Ani. Susanne said she should just keep going with the mare. I said, "Yes, Susanne believes the phrase, 'forward is always the answer.' and that's often the case, but I disagree, because in those moments you need to protect yourself and get her attention on you. You cannot do that if you just let her pull you along. If you need a full hour to get her attention on you, I will gladly wait an entire hour with you in the driving snow. I'm serious."
Anyway, I got back on Mag and rode home and was so happy at his perfect compliance and attention to whatever I did or said to him.
Oklahoma is his favorite song and it's hilarious, cuz he always hears, "HO-klahoma" and slams on the breaks, every time I get to that part. I just kept singing it til he started to realize it was just another word. I think I understand now why Germans say brrrr to get horses to stop. That tongue trill is not used in normal language. Clever Germans.
After having 3 trainers unable to help me get Mag to remain calm and just walk around the tree, I give up. I realized today it's just stressing me out, it'ts not helping at all with my anxiety problems.
On the way home we encountered a lady walking a dog and Mag was pretty "up" about that but the lady chatted with us when I asked about her dog which I did not recognize, and that seemed to help Mag. He stood like a plow horse the entire time.
Then I had to do it. As we passed the tree, I rode around it one last time.
As I grazed him along the busy street afterwards, I realized what might work - walk him around the tree just a few times, then the next time, one more, until I can get to 12. But who cares, I'm done with it for now.
Here is the video of "professional horse trainer" Lukas trying to get Mag to go around the tree. I blogged about it at the time, but I thought if you hadn't seen it, it might help you understand.
17 comments:
For me, and I’ve never met you or Mag so a I could be way off base here, it sounds like Mag does the thing you ask yet keeps getting asked to do it again and again and finally gives up giving you the answer. 10 times around the same tree is asking quite a lot and each time he says “ok” but then you ask again and the pressure isn’t removed. Why not try to break it up? Ask a time or two, then move on to something else and come back to the tree again later?
Sara, that's a good idea, I have to wonder why none of the trainers thought of that. I recall now how Mag reacted similarly to bushwhacking for "no reason" (looking for a CMO plate), with this same frantic behavior. Today during our "getting-to-10" circles, I stopped him a couple times to praise him and tell him that's all I want, but Susanne told me I shouldn't stop him, I should keep him circling.
Very much agree with Sara on the tree! He’s a smart boy, drillwork May feel like torture to him. I did the cloverleaf in my driving classes. Once I’d conquered it a few times, taking it at a brisk trot was sooooo much fun.
Camryn, what is the difference between me asking Mag to circle a tree in the woods, vs circling a cone in the arena 12 times? Is one of them torture and the other is OK?
I'm asking honestly for your opinion, because I'm open and wanting to get to the root of the problem.
If anyone wonders why this type of stuff is important to me, it's cuz I'm am an experienced CMO rider and all CMO horses must learn to be tied anywhere and left, brush through the undergrowth, and circle endlessly while we use our compasses to find what we're looking for. It's the funnest horse sport ever.
Yep, asking him to do the same thing a gazillion times is too much. He does it once, great! He does it a second time, better balanced, better bend, yay. Stop now. Go do something else. Unless there's a reason to do it a billion times without relief, just stop.
And they DO understand when you have purpose, even if they think the task is stupid. Ask anyone who has ever needed to long-trot out to the far end of a pasture to fix a bit of fence: the horse who usually moseys will move out smartly to get to the destination.
I agree with all of the people above. Asked for what you can get, then leave. Gradually you will get what you want and he will understand that it’s no big deal.
Maybe because he knows there are things more interesting to do in the woods? You’ve got me on that one!
Mark Rashid tells a story about a guy who told him he had a problem horse. Mark walked out to see what was going on. From the ground, the guy asked his horse to step sideways. The horse pinned his ears and snarked at the guy, but then stepped over. The guy went to the other side and asked his horse to step back. The horse once again pinned his ears but complied. After doing this several times in a row, the guy looked at Mark and said "see? He's being disrespectful."
Mark asked the guy if he knew what 1 + 1 was. The guy said yes. Mark asked him when he had learned that bit of math. The guy said probably in kindergarten. Mark said, "how often have to continued to practice 1+1? The guy looked incredulous and said, "never. 1+1 is easy." Mark said, "you are asking your horse to practice 1+1, over and over again."
All horses will reach their tolerance with drilling pretty quick. I think it's indicative of how much Mags loves and trusts you that he went around the tree ten times before letting you know he thought what you were doing was pretty pointless. It's time to move on to fractions or long division instead of simple math.
What Karen said.
I empathize with you this one. I had a horse that had a similar evasion, and a friend of mine also had a more severe version of same. And my current horse got it into his head to also do something similar when I would get into my teardrop legyield pattern and repeat, repeat, repeat. Yawn.
What I learned? Forward. Even if it means sacrificing the bend or exercise. When I squeeze, you jump forward. Always. At some times I needed to rework my forward button for weeks. My friend had a more dramatic CTJ moment with the help of a professional.
From a broader more philosophical point of view, you probably have benefitted from Mag not being particularly forward and perhaps even unconsciously rewarded it. Same goes with his opinions. Lets face it, your Mags has personnality and he seems to be a real joy to be around.
So youve trained him to think, and listen, and for the most part he does. But then when the drills come out, he feels the need to remind you he is not stupid.
Have you seem the parelli types of personnality. He might be a left brain extrovert, and some of those types do poorly with repetition. You need to work harder to keep it interesting and engaging. Give him a job, go march out to the frontlines to resupply the troops. Give him purpose.
See, just like what Karen said. :-)
I agree with all above - I just wanted to add the following: I am careful not to repeat too much on the trail because one of my horses takes drill work very seriously. If I am asking for him to do something like that at a set point repeatedly, he just assumes I am always going to want it. This is not such an issue for me, but I learned that is it very unenjoyable to try and break those habits once they are formed. Two examples: I do a lot of in hand work with one of my horses because he has weak stifles and walk with haunches in and shoulder in help keep those areas strong. However, if my husband goes out to get him from the field sometimes his body language tell Dutch to move his haunches and SO gets stuck "chasing" him to get him to stop. Another is every Spring once the mud dries up I have to re-teach him that I am not going to get off and walk him over a creek crossing. It usually involves a few weeks for pony club kicks and a crop to convince him that our pattern has changed. Mag seems super smart, I would worry about "over convincing him" on the importance of circling that tree - once he believes that it is import to you, it may be hard to get him to just walk past it.
Aarene, I understand your meaning; there's no need for hyperbole.
Karen, I know you've been reading long enough to remember our troubles with lunging. Mag hates it and I can expect a fight every time. The thing is, I want to be able to do it; I think it's something all trained horses should comply with. He knows if he complies the session is ridiculously short. But he feels he has to remind me how much he hates it and rip the skin off my hands. I wonder what Mark Rashid would say about this, with regard to the anecdote you posted. Would he say the horse knows lunging is simple math, so he'll circle the human a few times but then explode to show you he knows the math? I've admitted I'm giving up on this circling in the woods exercise, no worries, Mag won't be troubled by it anymore.
ND, Thank you for the insights. I wonder how much I really understand my own horse!
Gina, *lol* at that last part: )
Lunging. I agree with Mags on this one.
I much prefer more dynamic forms of line driving. Long lines (great for my own cardio as i jog behind and do pattern work) and my personal favorite is Buck Branamans windshield washer exercise. Rope halter, long line and I walk up and down the center line of the arena while my horse spins, canters, stops, spin 180, repeat. It gets the funk out, reconnects us, and is fast and fun which my horse loves. I scream and giggle when he does a great canter depart from the spin (much like a rollback) and he gets so proud. When he starts to anticipate the stop and spin I have him continue to canter 1.5 circles which keeps him sharp and “on the aids”. This is what I do when Ive been gone for a few weeks, the indoor arena has riders and I need to do a flight check before getting on.
My latest fun has been working on haunches in on long lines. Tristan Tucker showed me the way on this one. Great fun and super practical to have a cue for haunches over.
I guess its important to know what objective you seek? Voice commands? Endurance? Obedience?
Can I leave an unpopular opinion? I've been reading your blog for a while, but as I don't have my own blog, tend to not leave comments.
I am very new to the world of endurance riding, coming from the East Coast and a dressage/ eventing background and moving to Utah. One thing I have noticed with the few endurance riders that I have ridden with is that they tend to have a much larger range of accepted behaviors from their horses than dressage riders/eventers. Endurance horses may pick up a trot or slow to a walk on their own accord if the footing requires it without rider input. It is the opposite of the riding world I grew up in.
Horses who need to perform a dressage test need to be on the aids at all times, and wait for their rider to tell them what to do. We work to make sure we don't encourage a horse to anticipate a movement and do it on their own. The mentality is different - more of the "you have 22/23 hours a day hanging out in your luxury accomodations, when it's time to ride, your job is to follow my directions." So if I say today we are going to work on a 20 meter circle for 10 minutes, or lunge, or whatever, that is what we are going to do. My goal with my current horse (an OTTB) is to blend the two philosophies. I don't want to micro-manage him on the trail, but also if I say it's time to do something (stop and let someone pass, circle a tree multiple times, ride away from his friends, etc.) then he needs to follow that direction. In that video I see a few things - the horse being disrespectful to direction, but also the rider using inside aids to turn the horse, not pushing the horse over from the outside shoulder, allowing Mags to escape by pushing that outside shoulder out. It's fixable, but it will take someone with a sticky seat and the ability to be calmly stubborn and insit (maybe for a long time) that what I say is what happens. If you haven't yet, follow Denny Emerson on Facebook. He is an eventer who has done endurance and blends the two philosophies well.
He's letting Mag evade, isn't engaging his hind end at all... is only pulling on his head... doesn't have a stick. Is too inept to know how to use one... One of the most important things Dean taught me - is to Stop when you're ahead! You have to Win every time. If that means stopping on the first time around the tree - then that's when you STOP! Doing it over & over does nothing to further the horses training... Just my 2 cents.
Molly, I did dressage for 5 years before switching to endurance. I had the same impressions that you had, and was told by experienced riders, "You pick the speed, the horse chooses the gait." Watching the heart rate drop when the horse suddenly switches from a trot to a canter seems to prove that the horse knows best how to conserve energy.
I'm glad that you and others agree that Lukas was in over his head - glad that I did not have him out again after that day. At the time I was frustrated, "Does he know what he's doing?" "He's a professional he has to know!"
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