Is it possible to breed horses for the character trait I'm looking for?
S is having a hard time because she is trying to help me find a horse (online) and she's frustrated because of my budget. She says the only thing I can afford is a Tinker or a Haflinger, that you must spend over 5K Euros to get a ridden Arabian or half Arabian.
She's right - Arabians (and Quarter Horses) are rare, exotic things here. It would be so much easier if I wanted a fluffy breed. Zweibrueckers don't cost much either, relatively. And Fresians can be cheap.
S keeps sending me ads that are above my budget, and she gets frustrated when I disqualify a horse based on its pasterns (See this link for what I mean).
She told me I need to see the horses in person, that photos can lie. Yes photos can lie, but not about this. And in the past, I've gone to see horses and it's usually worse in real life. This is my main (only?) deal breaker. I'm sure you're all tired of hearing about it.
She really wants me to buy a horse from Haegerhof, where she got her horse (for 8K Euros, unbroke). That barn lied to me and the owner was rude to me, after I drove 4 hours in the snow to get there. She wants me to buy from a breeder, but I know that breeders don't usually put a lot of time into trail riding their horses, they just get them started. She's going to Haegerhof this month to shop for me, even though I don't like those people. I told her to ride this one *alone* in the woods if he's still there when she visits.
Then she sent me a link to a stable that breeds endurance Arabians. Breeders of endurance Arabians charge even more than breeders of show Arabians, I've noticed. Endurance Arabians must be the elite of their breed. Or endurance must be an elite sport, *snicker*
I wrote the endurance farm and said I'm looking for a trail horse, a horse who loves being on trails, and does not need to be purebred. They wrote me back and said "For your budget you can only afford a foal with endurance bloodlines." I wrote back, "Having endurance bloodlines does not guarantee the personality of the horse."
I am an idealist, and I think any healthy horse can do endurance, and having Arabian blood lets them do it even easier. This is why breeding for specifically endurance horses perplexes me. You shouldn't need to breed for endurance, you should just breed Arabians for qualities other than the face.
Aarene was just talking to me about this, the sad reality of buyers focusing on the face - I suppose if you don't care about riding them....
Coming back to my question - what do you think - does having parents that are successful in endurance give a foal the personality to do well in the sport? The character trait of loving to go out on trails? I would think it's a gamble, and having endurance parents is more likely to ensure conformational qualities.
I understand that some horses are known for passing on their personalities, but at the same time I've seen this country's most successful endurance horse up close, and he did his job, but didn't seem to love it. The way you introduce a horse to trails is probably more relevant than who its parents are.
As you can sense, I'm frustrated that I'm in the wrong place to find the breed of my choice, but I'm prepared to take my time. And compromise a little.
Why all this focus on endurance, when the sport is so whacked over here? I'm willing to give it a try despite my experiences. With Mara's conformation, she would have been a great athlete on the trail, if she had the desire to be on the trail, which happens to be important: )
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23 comments:
I don't usually comment, but breeding is one of my passions! (although I don't breed myself)
Temperament and characteristics can absolutely 100% be passed on through breeding I've worked at a few studs and there is definitely a pattern of temperament within generations. I'm not sure about the love of trails for instance, but for more basic things, like wilingness and honesty- or the opposite- spookiness and hyper sensitivity I have seen first hand passed on.
The career, temperament and quirks of the parent can say a lot about the progeny!
I've been thinking about this a while now and I've come to the conclusion that most horses enjoy trails rather than being ridden in circles, (and by most I don't mean all) but that isn't really a heredity thing, that's just the nature of the task. I'm really just frustrated by the idea that breeding two good endurance horses would imply a love of the trails in the foal. I suppose it's possible.
Leeshh- when you say the career of the parent can say a lot about the foal, I think you mean breed types bred for specific tasks, like Lippizans have a natural talent for dressage, conformationally, you're practically guaranteed the foal of two Lippizans will be able to do dressage more easily than a Quarter Horse.
If I were to try to breed for the character that makes a good trail horse, I'd probably breed from bloodlines of brave, courageous horses. However, the bravest, most fear-free horse I've ever ridden hated trails more than any horse I've ever met, so that's no good.
I visited with Bombay's dam often, and she was an aloof, crabby lady. However, Bombay has always been friendly, interested, and fun with a sense of humor. I met both Gabbrielle's dam and sire. The dam was calm, not spooky, and had a level head. The sire was totally nuts, rearing up in his stall the entire hour I was there because he wanted to peek over the wall to check out the filly in the stall next to him. The breeders told me they had to breed him with calm mares, because he was so high strung. I contacted someone who owned Gabbrielle's full brother and asked about that horse's personality. She said he was shy and a bit slow. I bought Gabbrielle as a yearling. She turned out to be very outgoing, a quick learner, obedient, but spooky and aggressive at times. So, I really haven't seen any formula going on in my experience. Also, Gabbrielle's dam was an endurance champion, but Gabbrielle grew into that lopsided conformation that limits her abilities -- something that wasn't obvious when she was a foal or yearling.
MaCor5, are you German?
NM, thanks for your input to my questions. I'm really trying to grasp this.
Forget Arabs. Go get that 900E Friesian. Geez Louise, that's CHEAP!
I don't think enjoying trail is really inheritable but soundess is. The gelding I'm currently looking at to buy has both parents as successfull endurance horses with his sire doing 100 well. Even though he's really spooky, his competition record is good and he's sound. My SE gelding was bred for English Pleasure and Park and had a ton of natural front action that wasn't the most fun to ride for many miles. Personally, I wanted one that was actually doing what I wanted to do instead of potential. My SE was a 2 year old colt when I got him and I don't have the time or money to train and wait for them to be rideable in my current situation. I don't usually comment but I'm an avid reader!
Keep in mind that Haflingers began as an Arab cross. Just sayin 😉
Remember this: http://haikufarm.blogspot.com/2012/11/in-which-patty-needs-horse-thats-not.html
We looked at hundreds of ads online. We contacted more than 80 people, and drove out to actually look at 26 horses in two (large) states.
We ended up with Flower, who is a lovely horse...a lovely horse who has been "slighly lame" for almost a year, following the close-up gopherhole inspection (http://haikufarm.blogspot.com/2014/10/in-which-wings-would-have-come-in-handy.html) last October.
Here's my point: you can shop for the perfect physical specimen, or as perfect as possible. You can have your list of deal breakers. And a hole in the ground can bollox the whole thing anyhow.
There isn't any way to guarantee success in this whole "shopping" thing. Avoiding horses who are obviously unsound or poorly built is a good idea. But it's also good to be watching for a horse that you *like*, and one that you want to succeed. Not just because you want to get back out on the trails. Obviously, you want that. But maybe keep an eye out for one that makes you think, "I can help this horse do great things."
Does that make sense?
As for breeding and temperament, yes, I think there's a connection. Endurance is such a new sport, I don't think we've really settled on an "endurance personality type" in our bloodlines yet, partly because we don't actually have very many common bloodlines in the sport yet.
I know from my correspondence with Standardbred people that certain STB pedigrees are highly predictive of certain personalities. Fiddle, BTW, comes from a "late bloomer" and "highly opinionated" line. Humph. Not all in the family are stubborn, apparently (her sire is known to be quite docile), but the trait is more common in her line than in a random control group. Of course, every individual is going to be different depending on genetics + environment + training + experience + phase of the moon + are you really going out wearing that + age. If you are just looking for a single horse, I think it's good to focus on just that horse.
Do endurance "breeders" breed only Arabians in Germany?
Speaking from experience, Friesians have great personalities and mine enjoyed the trails. However, endurance was definitely not part of the package. I think a mustang would be perfect for you -- but there aren't many of them in Europe, I'm sure.
I love it when you take us horse shopping with you! Really enjoy the photos, descriptions and analysis of the different horses that you look at. Your budget seems quick healthy and one would think that finding a suitable mount would not be too terribly difficult. I'm glad that you are being somewhat flexible and keeping an open mind. I saw that Friesian too, they are suck pretty horses. Have you ever ridden one? Have a good week! Kay
That last bay looks nice. I hope she gets to ride him. What's wrong with a Zweibrucker? That one looked nice too.
Becky, for some reasons Fresians do not appeal to me, unless they're pulling a coach, which is what they seem to be made for. That particular Fresian isn't ridden yet because he has a difficult personality, the ad says, but I wanted to show that they are not a rare breed here.
ma da, I'm glad you agree, based on your experience.
Camryn, I was wondering why you never see Haflingers crossed with Arabs- wouldn't that be cute? Did you read my blog from March when I went to Equitana, and the Haflinger demo was my favorite one? They had these little sportcar Haflingers, not the big chunky type so common here.
Aarene, Patti has had it rough lately. Good that she has friends to loan her horses. What will become of Flower? My next door neighbor bought a fancy warmblood and it stepped in a hole and she drugged it to hide the injury and sold it, and was sued. I guess that's common here. If you go to www.Arabians.de you'll see they also breed Akhal Tekes for endurance, and a breed calle Arasier, a cross of the two. All out of my budget.
Have your Akhal Teke friends bred this cross?
Annette, I've been thinking about what you said about having known a handful of horses yourself who hated trails. Do you think it was based on early experiences or personality? Both? Also, I've often thought about how Mustangs can learn to trust humans, and my mare could not.
Kay, I've never ridden a Fresian but I've never really wanted to. What I want to try is the tolt of an Icelandic!
Redhorse, that Zweibruecker looked awesome - it is an experienced hunting horse, for only 5K! I'm not interested in warmbloods. I can compromise a bit on breed, but not that far.
MaCor5, he's a bit out of my price range, I wonder how flexible the seller is. Why is he for sale? Have you ridden this horse yourself? Are you in Hanover? My mare came from Hanover and moving to our hilly region really freaked her out - she'd never seen a hill nor valley and both were terrifying to her. Has the gelding been outside Hanover? I don't personally like Fresians, but a lot of Americans are crazy about them. What types of genetic issues do they have? Can I ask how you found my blog?
Dear Lytha,
I love reading along as you horse-shop:) Lots of good luck! I just wanted to add, there are Halfinger-Arab crosses, they are called either 'Edelbluthaflinger' (w/ 25% Arab blood) oder Arabo-haflinger, so they do exist!
Helen
Liebe Helen, I looked up the breed and found some breeders, but I can't really see the Arabian influence in most of them. Maybe I found the wrong websites. But I do remember at Equitana seeing a whole 'nother type of Haflingers - all very small and extremely sporty. That's probably what they were. Thanks for letting me in on this!
Yes, Cathy at Cascade Gold has bred some Teke/Arab crosses. There is also a Teke/Qtr cross on the circuit now (Lisa Preston from Sequim has him) doing well in endurance and R&T. I've ridden a couple of the CG Tekes in the arena, but not on long trails. They are very like Arabs but they look more exotic. Very comfortable to ride and SMART and. sensitive but not usually silly once they are adults. Good feet, generally. Often dainty of bone, but not always.
I prefer cart horses, obviously *g* but Tekes would be a good 2nd choice for me.
Aarene, next time I see you we must speak privately about this.
Monica is the Teke gal. And Cathy, of course!
Two suggestions, Lytha. Either find a nice sensible cob that will carry you safely along the trails. Or perhaps take a look in Hungary for a good Shagya Arabian, if these are still reasonably priced. It's better to buy a decent example of an affordable breed than a cheap example of a luxury breed. You've seen my mare - a Slovenian part-bred Noriker that cost me three thousand Euros - safer and more useful than any cut-price Arabian. I've just ridden past a procession of tractors and assorted farm machinery on a narrow rural road. I'd rather do that on a 'common' horse than take my chances on something fancier.
Here is a link on the Friesian health problems. They really do have a lot of problems. http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/trouble-with-friesians It's from being so inbred. I still love the breed, but I've decided I'll probably never own a purebred because it just seems like a huge risk for heartbreak. :( I sometimes wonder if Chrome's sweet itch is from his Friesian side, although his sire is unaffected. He is my dream horse even if he is only half, so I'm okay with not having a purebred.
I think temperament can definitely be bred for. I have no idea if a love of trails can be bred for though... Like you mentioned most horses love trails over endless circles. I wonder why so many there don't?? Is it the trails? Or the way they are raised?
To me it seems like a horse raised loose on 100 acres is going to be happier out on the trails than a horse raised half the time in a stall and the other half the time on an acre paddock. Aren't most horses there kept in small areas because there isn't a lot of land? Maybe that could have something to do with it? I'm just guessing though. I have no idea for sure lol.
When I saw the below, I could not help but think of Bellis!
https://www.facebook.com/pegasebuzz/videos/706521589422655/?fref=nf
WHP, I could also go to Poland but with no local contacts and no language skills in those countries, I have no idea how that would work.
MaCor5, I don't have your email address.
Achieve, thanks for the article - fascinating. I know I've seen a lot of Friesians with that fetlock thing I keep talking about - now I know it's actually a Friesian thing. I am gonna make an effort to spell the word Friesian properly in the future: )
Kay, thanks for that, how cute!
MaCor5 - I went to your blogger profile and there is no personal information. You can email me if you like at eli underscore barnett at hotmail. Not dot de: )
did you put the underscore_Unterstrich in?
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